The Health Management Academy

Episode 10

Addressing Loneliness with Compassionate Technology

Featuring Cindy Jordan

Episode Description

In this episode, Cindy Jordan, the co-founder and CEO of Pyx Health, joins Renee at The Table. They discuss many aspects of loneliness, including the breadth of the issue and how Pyx is fighting to make a change. Cindy shares from her experience about choosing insurers as initial external partners and how she navigates leading a company around a deeply emotional origin story.

About Our Guest

Cindy Jordan, Co-founder and CEO, Pyx Health

After witnessing a family member’s mental health crisis, Cindy co-founded Pyx Health with Anne Jordan in 2018. As the CEO, Cindy continues to fuel innovation and growth. Finding a near-perfect balance of technology and compassionate human intervention, she leads the company on its mission to effectively address the health crisis of loneliness and social isolation.


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Renee DeSilva 0:07

Welcome back to The Academy Table. I’m Renee DeSilva, CEO of The Academy and your host. This week, I was joined by my friend and colleague Cindy Jordan, who is the co-founder and CEO of Pyx Health. Pyx is a startup looking to address chronic loneliness using, as they call it, “predictive technology with a human hook.” I love that. The Pyx mission is personal for Cindy and her wife and business partner Anne. They founded the company after their daughter, Riley, lost her struggle with mental health and addiction.

There’s so much that I took away from my time with Cindy. I learned a lot about loneliness, which is far more pervasive than any of us really recognize. It’s a chronic, measurable condition that affects more than a third of Americans and really is reaching a public health crisis in proportion. We all have a role to play in recognizing how loneliness shows up and doing our part to connect those struggling to the right care.

Second, Cindy has always been a bold and brave entrepreneur. Pyx’s initial external partners have been insurers, particularly Medicare and Medicaid. I loved Cindy’s explanation for that decision. Vulnerable populations are all too often ignored by innovation. So this is where Pyx started. It’s a lesson and mission for all of us to remember.

And finally, I’ve long admired Cindy’s authenticity as a leader, the way that she shows up as true to who she is. Listen to how she’s navigated leading a company around a deeply emotional origin story. As an organization, everyone identifies their BBOs, or beliefs, behaviors and objectives, which helped to shape the collective culture. For Cindy, that means bringing love to work, connecting the why of the mission with the how of their solution.

One final thought for me. One of my earliest intentions in launching this podcast was to create a space for voices that perhaps are a bit less visible, to be heard and to be seen. And so it’s really a pleasure to release this episode on the last day of Pride Month in 2022 by giving Cindy—who is an openly gay, healthcare, woman CEO—the platform. I can’t think of a better example of an important voice that’s underrepresented in our broader healthcare ecosystem. I personally draw so much from Cindy’s willingness to be bold and to bet on herself and I hope that you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. So with that, let’s head to the table.

Cindy, welcome to the table. So happy to have you here today.

Cindy Jordan 3:12
Oh, thanks for having me. It’s a real pleasure.

Renee DeSilva 3:15
So Cindy, I have had the benefit of knowing you for quite some time and when I think of an entrepreneur, you often come to mind. So maybe let’s just start there. What were some of the early forces that shaped your interest in healthcare, but in particular entrepreneurship?

Cindy Jordan 3:31
It’s interesting. I always sort of want to point to a big bang moment where I was like, oh, I want to do this for myself. But it’s a buildup of things and life experiences that bring you to this idea that you kind of are willing to assume the risk to try to build something on your own. But as far as healthcare and starting my first company, I worked at an ad agency, essentially, I was in the marketing department in the strategy department and worked for a large integrated health system. The story goes that my job was to sort of help specialists increase their referral business from primary care physicians. And I remember sitting in a meeting with a gastro, and he literally asked me if we could put up a billboard of an infected colon. And so it was in that moment where I was like, Okay, this is not the way to tackle this problem. And literally started researching how patients moved through a system and started my first business and that was medical referral source, which was acquired by the advisory board and where you and I met, but I, as far as is being able to sort of take an idea and assume the risk, it really just is a lifetime of, I’d rather bet on myself than then try to maybe bet on someone else. And I think that’s sort of the short version to that answer.

Renee DeSilva 5:00
I love that. I have respect for that because I also just think the ability to see a way to solve a problem with a blank sheet is a gift that I don’t have. So I deeply respect folks that can do that. I know that your journey for founding Pyx came out of a personal and emotional one. And so can you just ground us a bit in that story?

Cindy Jordan 5:22
Yeah. So after I worked for the advisory board for a couple years— which by the way, it was literally a fantastic experience. Everything I know about sales, I learned there, I really didn’t think I would get back into health care. There were projects I was passionate about, one of my stepdaughters was in college at the time, and I was really concerned about safety for young women on college campuses. But in 2017, my oldest stepdaughter had a horrible year. She ended up in and out of the ED. Of course, we didn’t know because she was an adult. And then at the end of the year, landed herself in an inpatient facility. And this was the year she was diagnosed as bipolar, and she had some addiction issues that were really riddled in there. And kind of once we got through it as a family, and it was a profoundly life-changing year for us, particularly as it related to her. I asked her, “What are we missing? We’re here. We support you. We love you. What’s going on that kind of sends you into these spirals?” And she said, “It starts with feeling overwhelmingly lonely.” And so I did what I do and I started researching loneliness. And it turned out we’re sort of the only developed country in the world that doesn’t treat loneliness as a chronic, diagnosable treatable condition. And so I felt very moved to kind of get into this space, figure it out, figure out what an intervention would look like, how do people who are lonely, utilize etc, etc. And, and very, very, very tragically, my stepdaughter lost her struggle with mental health issues, and that really solidified what we’re doing here at pix and why it’s our mission for a family not to lose someone to loneliness and all that comes with it and have the experience that we’ve had.

Renee DeSilva 7:17
Yeah, well, first of all, deeply sorry for that loss. I can only imagine how profound it is and thank you for talking about it. We’re in June now, but May was mental health awareness month and so thank you for just speaking to that. And I think of you and often and sent you my best regards, on what some unimaginable. And I know that you’ve thrown a lot then into this problem-solving approach on loneliness. And you mentioned this a moment ago, but should not be identified as sort of an acute issue or state of being it’s more of a chronic condition. But can we just start with the definition of how do you define loneliness?

Cindy Jordan 7:56
So loneliness is in layman’s terms, there’s a lot of research that’s come out recently, but loneliness is when a person feels like they’re in dire straits. In other words, no one understands the plight or the state that they’re in. It’s not really like you and I may have experienced loneliness through the pandemic, where I’m like, Man, I’m lonely. I wish I had a friend that I could go see outside of my household. But real loneliness, actually, it has a scientific response in the body, it increases the level of cortisol, which of course, affects us both physically and mentally, the person who’s suffering from chronic loneliness actually starts to develop negative thought patterns. And this causes further tendency to isolate, and it has a negative impact on blood pressure and sleep patterns. And actually, obesity. It’s very, very similar to— A common term we’ve all heard to what happens in the body with fight or flight. But as far as it relates to health care, it makes the person believe that there is nothing that can help them. So they go off their meds. They sometimes, like in Riley’s case, they’ll turn to substances and they become noncompliant in their treatment. And that in loneliness is often a predicator. For other things like depression and physical conditions like loneliness. I mean, like obesity and diabetes, etc. And so, that’s a bit of a long explanation to say that loneliness is just like, what depression was many, many years ago where people just thought they were sad. Loneliness is a chronic condition that we need to start looking for and identifying.

Renee DeSilva 9:44
Yeah, and in preparation for our time today. I was just sort of immersing a bit and some of the research around it and I think our current Surgeon General Vivek Murthy talks about it as a public health crisis on the scale of the opioid epidemic and every bit as prevalent as diabetes. But doesn’t necessarily get the level of attention and focus on that on that issue. So maybe unpack for us, how do you think about systemically addressing loneliness as a chronic condition? You built a business around it, but I would be curious to know how you’ve really thought about really going about a solution?

Cindy Jordan 10:22
The first thing that comes to mind when people say, Okay, I believe you, I read the science, how do I find my chronically lonely members or patients, and there is an evidence-based screening that providers use the UCLA. So when you actually are physically in person with somebody, and you suspect that this could be a problem by some of the symptoms that I just talked about, you can you can just like for depression, how you use, you use a PHQ, you can use the UCLA loneliness screening, but more importantly, you can look at it from a population perspective, there are people who are lonely, utilize the healthcare system differently. And it’s, it translates into high Ed utilization, unnecessary inpatient admissions, they stop taking their meds. So they may be on psychotropics, for example. And then all of a sudden, for two or three months in a row, they’ve stopped fulfilling their prescription social determinants of health they are so so if you notice that somebody is starting to throw up some SDOH needs, particularly urgent ones. Almost 67% of the time, loneliness is an underlying condition. So we just have to kind of accept it as a system and start to throw it in the way we do other mental and behavioral health issues.

Renee DeSilva 11:47
It’s fascinating, I was struck by if you take if you if you approach it like you would any other medical condition, and you talk a lot about how it sort of manifests, I guess the trail end of that is, I think, something around close to 7 billion in Medicare spending related to this sort of loneliness as a chronic condition. So let’s then talk about the interventions, right, like we know about what the intervention is, if someone has unmanaged hypertension, or if someone has an agency that’s not within normal limits. What does an intervention look like for such a, a chronic issue?

Cindy Jordan 12:20
I can speak specifically to Pyx’s intervention, and from what I think in the market, we’re probably, if not assuredly the only therapeutic intervention that I know of. And so the way that we do it is we take a population and we run that population data through a loneliness index. And that is because we’ve been in the market for five years, we, we know the things to look for, right? So then we’ll pull out what we believe to be not only the acute or the chronically lonely, and isolated, but also, we will pull out people who have a propensity to want to accept an intervention. And that is super key, because in healthcare tech we’re always trying to shove these solutions down our patients throats. And that just doesn’t work, right, we’ve got to find people who are in a place that they would be willing to accept some kind of intervention in for us. And I know this is going to sound crazy counterintuitive. But we have a two-pronged approach. And the first prong is Tech, we use a very empathetic machine learning chatbot in a piece of technology. And what I mean by that is not based on disease, state, or diagnosis. There are not libraries of indices that say, if you are diabetic, you should be doing these three things. And if you are lonely, you should be doing these three things really are chatbot acts like a friend in a coffee shop. So it would be like Renee, if you and I got together, if the tech at a coffee shop, and you hadn’t seen me in years, you wouldn’t say, hey, Cindy, I know you’re diagnosed with depression, how’s it going? You’ve asked me how I’m doing. And that’s exactly what the bot does. He measures sentiment, and then that informs how he interacts. But of course, what we’re doing is paying attention to those interactions. And when somebody presents as chronically lonely through a screening or through the algorithm, or they let us know they have an urgent SDOH need. This is when the second prong of our intervention kicks in. And that’s our humans. Because in the end, we’re treating a very human condition by treating loneliness and you need human beings. And so we have a whole call center of people that are licensed in minimally impure support, and they’re called Andy. And that stands for authentic, nurturing, dependable, your friend. And these folks will actually actively reach out to our users. And when we find them in a state of acuity, we enroll them in what we call our Thrive program, which is an eight-week structured program that uses both the Andes and the tech and It moves people through the acuity of chronic loneliness, our goal is to get people back into their, their the health plans, resources, or the health systems resources or back to their physician basically get them compliant in their health care again.

Renee DeSilva 15:17
So fascinating. I want to come back to thrive in a second. But as you were talking, it made me recollect a conversation I was involved in recently, which was this concept of human and AI dyad models of care holding a ton of promise and some of the workforce challenges that we face as a country, particularly within healthcare, but maybe broadly, and I think you just brought that to life so nicely in terms of the, I think you said, the empathetic chatbot combined with human intervention, as as a way to do that. So I think that’s a really interesting example of a sort of a human AI dyad model of care that that that holds a ton of potential. So that really strikes me.

Cindy Jordan 15:57
They should be an extension of one another. The bot informs the end, the humans and the humans inform the bot. One of the things that we kind of get away from is that is that all healthcare decisions, all buying decisions, all of that is they’re all human decisions, even when you’re selling into the CEO of the largest health system in the country, that CEO is going to come to that table with his or her experiences, and this is how people consume healthcare technology. And unfortunately, I’m talking about a class of people that I belong to, but I think as entrepreneurs, we run at the financial market metrics first, what are our margins? Can I get an over an 80% margin, and in the end, we’re missing the actual problem we’re trying to solve. And I think that this is the future is to give tech a heart.

Renee DeSilva 16:58
And when you think about the metrics that would maybe be illustrative of that, what types of metrics do you begin to start tracking as all these pieces come together?

Cindy Jordan 17:08
Yeah, well, obviously, we monitor utilization, which always has a lag, because it’s claims data. But we’ve had a few partners, clients of ours that have conducted significantly statistic case studies to prove that this kind of intervention can actually start to change the utilization patterns of members and patients. And then the second thing we do to track because in the end, we want to, we want to prove that this worked is that we will use pre and post-ELA and PHQ screenings. So we’re not only seeing did we improve their loneliness numbers, but did we improve, like depression and anxiety as well. So we’ve got actually, right now we have a paper that’s being peer reviewed, that we hope will get published that proves that this kind of intervention can in fact, improve through evidence-based screening somebody’s chronic loneliness and depression.

Renee DeSilva 18:06
And I sort of glossed over this, but want to go back for a second, when you talked about the when the sort of dyad model of care happens, the human intervention then guides somebody through an eight-week Thrive program. Just bring some of the highlights of that program to life for us if you would.

Cindy Jordan 18:20
Yeah, so it’s a combination of the tech and in the humans, and it’s all based in positive psychology, and we use the clinician to help us write the program. But like, I’ll give you an example. One of the things we do in the tech, when we find somebody we put them in the Thrive program is we have a feature inside the platform, in addition to the bot that’s called Pyx Pets. And so we encourage people to adopt a pet. And you’d be shocked at how profound this is you have to feed that pet, you have to care for that pet, you have to, you have to think outside yourself and it starts to kind of break down that fight or flight and it makes you start to care about something else. And then, of course, the enemies, get to see what the person is how the person is interacting inside the platform. And we use basically badging. It’s not rocket science, but it makes sense. It gives, it gives the person an exercise or two a week to complete. And then Andy checks in every week. And we do this for eight weeks. And in the meantime, we’re moving them through that “stuck in mud,” that they’re feeling when they’re chronically lonely and getting them back to compliance. Another thing I forgot to mention, which is really important, and this is outside of the Thrive program is that when you’re helping someone through loneliness, and you find out that they need a shower seat, for example, because they haven’t taken a shower in 10 days because there’s broke, we will solve those problems in the moment. If somebody is like, I need my medicine and I can’t navigate the phone system at CVS. They told me I have to fill out a form are Andy’s will do that as well you have to treat basically the whole person.

Renee DeSilva 20:09
So it’s like love is in the details. Those little small things go a long way. So your early external partners have largely been insurers which does sort of seem obvious, right? Because those are often the groups that are sort of at risk for their patients. But tell us why you decided to start with primarily government-insured populations. That sometimes feels a little counterintuitive. So talk a little bit about that.

Cindy Jordan 20:36
I think you’re right. I think it’s really counterintuitive, but there were two primary reasons. One is because my daughter was actually a Medicaid member in the state of California. And I saw that experience firsthand. And so I was just very connected to what happened there that, frankly, she got incredible care. But I saw the way that vulnerable populations are ignored by innovation. And I would, I was very moved by that. And so the other was that my early mover, my very, very first client was actually Banner Health. They obviously have a Medicaid plan and their health system. And I remember the chief medical officer saying to me, Hey, Cindy, if you can make it in Medicaid, you can make it anywhere. And he was singing that New York tune so I really embraced that. And it was a big challenge. You can’t go out and build the most incredible technology for the iPhone 14, or whatever number we were on, we had to build for the Samsung five. And we have to build for folks that don’t use the Play Store, we had to build for people that don’t have access to regular Wi-Fi, and it has shaped who we are as a company, and I’m so grateful that that’s where we started.

Renee DeSilva 22:01
I love that: vulnerable populations are often ignored by innovation. What a mission to ground on. That’s really powerful.

Cindy Jordan 22:08
Yeah, it’s true. You know this, Renee. Start an employer or start a commercial and then once you figure that out, move your way left toward government programs. And we started over there. And I’m now the commercial space feels almost easy.

Renee DeSilva 22:25
Right. So as you’re talking about that, Cindy, in my mind, I’m thinking that for the average health system anyway, government payers represent 45% of their payer population. So in terms of having a really big impact at scale on a chronic condition like loneliness, I really have deep respect for sort of the original roots of how you began.

Cindy Jordan 22:48
Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. And I really, it is, I think it’s why the company even as we grow, we’re in 52, markets, and all of a sudden, we have like, over 125 employees, I think this is why people are so married to the mission is that we’re helping the people that need it most in at times in their lives that are extraordinarily difficult.

Renee DeSilva 23:13
Agreed. So then, as you look forward, where do you see opportunities for future partnerships or future growth now that you are year five and beyond of this vision?

Cindy Jordan 23:27
The easy answer is anybody who has any kind of risk in the game, Pyx would be an awesome solution for them. However, I’d like to, like, get beyond that, right, I’d like to stop following the money and get to the idea that I don’t know very many people in health care, I really don’t, who are not truly dedicated to improving both physical and behavioral health, the lives of the people they serve, whether they serve them through a system, they serve them as a provider, or they are a payer that serves them as members. And this is just simply the right thing to do. As you pointed out, in the New York Times article, loneliness is becoming more deadly, and I mean, deadly, like killing people than obesity and alcoholism. And so I think at some point, this should just be the right thing to do. Even when you think about PBM and pharma. We know that when you treat loneliness, can Renata med adherence company but the byproduct is people get back on their preventative medication. So there’s so much opportunity here.

Renee DeSilva 24:37
Yeah, I mean, even you sort of mentioned this briefly, but even from an employer perspective, when I was reading this New York Times article, I mentioned that there’s $154 billion in lost productivity related to stress absenteeism, which is sort of linked back to this social isolation and loneliness issue. So yeah, it’s hard to imagine why you would not want to approach this just given how pervasive it is. And it seems like only getting a bigger gap is beginning to be built.

Cindy Jordan 25:04
Yeah, of course, I mean, the employer space. Actually, Humana did really the most incredible comprehensive study in this study on what loneliness does to the workforce. And now that it looks like we’re going to be hybrid forever, it’s only gonna get worse. And it’s hard because you get caught up in a bunch of benefits, and not a single one of them isn’t valuable. But if you believe the science of loneliness, and you are an employer, your employees will not engage in all of those cool resources that you are providing to them. If they are in a state of acuity period, they’re going to miss work, their productivity is going to go down, they’re going to become distrustful, it’s, and that that begs an intervention from an outside source because nobody’s going to call their HR department and say, I’m lonely. And I’m calling them because I’m lonely.

Renee DeSilva 25:55
That’s right. That’s right. So powerful. Well, I want to switch gears a bit and maybe pivot more broadly to leadership and culture a little bit to that last conversation. I’m struck by you as a CEO. I’ve always experienced you as being very authentic, very comfortable in your skin very true to who you are. And I think part of that is you’ve taken this deeply personal experience and has had and have really launched a company around that. How do you approach that? Do you feel that weight? Because I think about just the pressure of a CEO role, period. And then when you add on it, it’s like deeply personal family issue that sort of was the thrust behind it. I just wonder just how do you navigate that?

Cindy Jordan 26:39
I mean, first of all, thank you. And I just don’t know how else to be. And so what we did was we actually had a, we’re very fortunate, one of our investors is a firm out of Denver called Rally Day, and they really believe in taking culture to the next level. And I’ll try to do this safely. But anyway, they send in a guy named Brian kite, and this guy taught culture to the NFL. And so I was like, Well, I don’t know how this is going to translate into me and into health care. But here’s what it boils down to. As an organization, we have what we call our BBOs. And the first ‘B’ is our beliefs. And we did that as a leadership team. So anybody who was a director of above, we got together for an entire weekend at a retreat and say, what do we believe in. And one of them I’ll use as an example is to bring our love to work. Now, firstly, we don’t talk about love enough in a professional setting. And secondly, we had to say, ‘Well, what does that mean?’ So the second ‘B’ in the BBOs is, what are the behaviors associated with our belief of bringing our love to work? And then ‘O’ is, what are the objectives that we want? And so Renee, we did these as a company, we do them with all of our employees, as individuals, we let people come up with their own BBOs. We really believe ‘be you, align with us.’ And we manage to these. If somebody does not, if you do not believe in our three beliefs and you can’t basically exude the behaviors associated with those, then you’re in the wrong place.

Renee DeSilva 28:22
I love that: BBOs, bring our love to work. It reminds me of a I don’t know if you’ve read any of Kahlil Gibran’s work. He talks about work is love made visible. Yep. And just all the ways that that happens. And so I love that you’ve really activated a culture around that it’s really powerful.

Cindy Jordan 28:41
Yeah, I think that culture needs to stop being just like a bunch of words that get put on with a sticky on a wall. It has to be the way that we behave. And it’s been hard. We’ve had some really, really top performers who are just and I know this because you’ve dealt with lots of high performers. But they don’t fit into the culture. And you have to, you have to give them permission to go seek their happiness elsewhere. Because that’s the most important thing you can do is we all have to be locked arm in lockstep. And so, to tie it back to your original question, this is, this is why I can be so open about the fact that I’ve experienced something that parents are never supposed to experience and I’m trying to turn it into something good.

Renee DeSilva 29:28
Really powerful. So maybe the other place that I wanted to spend a moment would be that I think you and I should share this experience of oftentimes still being the only in a room. For me, that might look like being the only woman in person of color for you that might look like being the only woman and openly gay. How do you think about that? Has that evolved for you over time? Or maybe you’ve gotten more comfortable with it? Maybe then you were 10 or 15 years ago, I’d love just to know your sort of personal take on that.

Cindy Jordan 29:58
Gosh, it’s so interesting you say that. I do think I have gotten more comfortable with it. I’m sure you’ve had experiences like this, there are times when I’m still scared of what the other person might think, Oh, well, this hurt my business. And most particularly because my wife and I both work in this company, I just have to believe that we as an industry, in particular, have gone beyond that, that really, me being a lesbian and being married to a woman doesn’t make me any different than then my heterosexual counterparts. But the truth is, it is still sometimes, like, very scary. And I am certain that there have been people that have not done business with me because of it.

Renee DeSilva 30:48
For sure, I mean, if you just look at fundraising for women, and like, just broadly, right, it’s certainly more challenging. So the intersectionality of that issue.

Cindy Jordan 30:58
That’s right. I think what is it less than two and a half percent of female-founded forget about being a person of color, it gets much worse, forget about being openly gay, it gets much, much worse. But if you look at all of the private equity dollars in less than two and a half percent of them are going to female-founded companies, yet women tend to be more successful in business. It is a wrong that we need to right.

Renee DeSilva 31:27
Indeed. For me, it’s been interesting as I think the more that I’ve gotten comfortable in my role, and the more that a have just sort of said, to whom much is given much as expected in terms of I feel like I have a platform. And I think earlier in my career, I was probably less comfortable about calling things and I would even say calling things out, calling people in on maybe challenging topics, I really have been trying to push myself in ensuring that if I don’t feel like I can speak voice to power, just sort of given my role and where I sit, like who will and so I’ve been really just sort of trying to sit with that a bit more and being a bit more visible and outspoken on issues that matter.

Cindy Jordan 32:06
Yeah, it’s so powerful. I love what you just said it’s true. It’s kind of if not me, then who? And sometimes, and I’m sure you’ve been there, I honestly don’t want it to be me. But, but, but to your point, I’m very grateful for where I am, I am glad I get to do things like this with you. And I would be doing a disservice really, for all women trying to do what we’re doing if I wasn’t authentic about it.

Renee DeSilva 32:31
Indeed. All right, final question. A little bit more of a fun one, if you could invite two people to continue this conversation. So we talked a lot, we talked about a lot. We talked about loneliness and representation, and entrepreneurship, if you were curating your own table to continue this conversation, who would you invite? And why?

Cindy Jordan 32:50
Well, I think one of the people I would invite and I know this might be a cliche answer is Michelle Obama, I just really, I’m so inspired by her, I think that she’s sort of an unsung hero and she worked and may have a profound impact with the person that she loves and is married to. So to me, that experience really resonates. And I think maybe the second person would be Gosh, and no, this is gonna sound really sad. But I would want Riley to be at the table with me again and say what do you think? How are we doing this? Because she lived this experience and I often wonder how she sees what we’re doing. And yeah, full stop.

Renee DeSilva 33:36
Yeah, well, I’m sure she would be proud of what you and have accomplished. And even more than that, just the type of people you are, you’re just always so genuine. I always enjoy catching up with you. I hope that it won’t be so long until we catch up again. But so delighted that you joined us today. And thank you so much. I learned a lot and loneliness and probably have more of an awareness of how to just watch how that might show up in my own life and in my own circle. So thank you for that as well.

Cindy Jordan 34:00
Yeah, well, thank you for having me really enjoy the conversation. And also thank you for having a place where people can come and, as you said, have a microphone. It’s so important.

Renee DeSilva 34:12
I love it. It’s one of the favorite— sort of started as a pastime through COVID. And I now just really get a lot of energy out of it. So thank you for joining me and I will talk to you soon.

Cindy Jordan 34:21
Thanks, Renee.

Renee DeSilva 34:22
Thanks again for joining me at the table. The Table is a podcast produced by the Health Management Academy. Make sure you catch future episodes by visiting our website,, or by subscribing on the podcast platform of your choice, and if you have suggestions for topics or guests, I’d love to hear from you. Please drop me a note at I look forward to talking with you soon.