The Health Management Academy
Untitled-design (4)

Episode 2

Evaluating Today’s Healthcare Talent Landscape

Episode Description

In this episode, Mia Jung, a talent partner at private equity firm Welsh, Carson, Anderson and Stowe, joins Renee at The Table. They discuss two big topics within the talent world: the value of diverse governance teams and executive healthcare leadership today. The conversation also covers the power of “the nudge,” the evolving requirements for the most effective leaders in health care, and a reflection on the unprecedented rate at which we are operating in today’s hybrid office environment.

About Our Guest

Mia Jung, Talent Partner at Welsh, Carson, Anderson & Stowe

Mia Jung is a Talent Partner on the Healthcare team, having joined in 2022. Ms. Jung focuses on executive talent strategy and management and is responsible for helping WCAS’s healthcare companies build best-in-class leadership teams. She brings nearly a decade of executive search experience, having placed hundreds of leaders in many of the healthcare industry’s top organizations.


↓ scroll ↓

Renee DeSilva 0:06

Welcome back to The Academy Table. I’m Renee Desilva, CEO of The Academy and your host. This week I had the pleasure of sitting down with my friend and colleague Mia Jung, who currently serves as a talent partner at private equity firm Welsh, Carson, Anderson and Stowe.

Mia and I discussed two big topics within the talent world. First, the value of diverse governance teams and how to improve gender and racial parody on healthcare boards. Later, we covered the in-demand evolving qualities for healthcare leaders and how the great resignation is impacting executive leadership. Here are a few of my takeaways from our conversation.

First, I loved our chat on the power of the nudge, defined as “a well-timed push from a colleague or friend that helps you see what’s possible in your own career.” Mia and I have both received and delivered many nudges over the years and we have seen firsthand how it can create a butterfly effect of positive career momentum. So to the leaders and people managers listening, I ask you the same question that I asked myself, which is, who will you nudge today? It’s an incredibly powerful way to impact the talent landscape.

Next, listen to how Mia defines the requirements of the most effective leaders in health care, which is evolving to become far more than functional expertise. We need empathetic leaders who balance IQ with EQ or, as Mia puts it, they need perspective and an evenness to manage through the many highs and lows of the industry.

And lastly, my broader reflection on this time with Mia is to note that the speed at which we’re all operating is truly unprecedented. Managing the new hybrid office environment, attracting and keeping engaged talent during the great resignation, continuing to grow and reimagine companies, all within the backdrop of an ongoing once-in-a-generation pandemic. It’s both a challenge and opportunity for all of us. So with that, join me at the table.

Mia, welcome to The Table. So happy to have you with us this afternoon.

Mia Jung 2:31
Thank you so much for having me, Rene. I’m a huge fan of the podcast and of you personally.

Renee DeSilva 2:36
Thank you this was a this is a conversation that I’ve been looking forward to you are one of my favorite people to talk to about all things talent. And so I look forward to diving into that. But maybe before we do, let’s talk about you for a moment. Give us a sense for some of the early forces that shaped your career and how did you find your way into healthcare.

Mia Jung 2:58
My earliest memories of been exposed to healthcare actually go back to my grandfather Raymond straw line, he was a pharmacist. And I remember distinctly my mother bringing my twin sister Carla and I into his pharmacy, and just being able to watch him with his patients and the rapport that he had built and the trust that patients had with him as a pharmacist. And I remember thinking, like, how cool is that, that that’s how he spends his time. And in addition, he was an entrepreneur, he owned his own pharmacy. And he had five girls to support. So the whole notion of doing good and doing well was something that was crystallized early on with my grandfather. And then what really helped shape my career kept me connected to healthcare were the personal stories and experiences that occurred through life. Unfortunately, that same grandfather committed suicide when I was 11 years old. And so the irony of somebody who had been taking care of people wasn’t taking care of himself hit me pretty hard. And the downstream effects to my mother and to her four sisters really opened up different dinner table conversations with my mom and in my family where depression and addiction had afflicted my family. And so really busting open the topic of health care and the importance of taking care of yourself. So that’s what I think became my mantra, doing good and doing well. And then just always bringing things back to the patient.

Renee DeSilva 4:32
Absolutely, that is a both traumatic and profit and also powerful story and in terms of how our work gets connected over time. So you’ve been in the talent world for quite some time. Now. I wonder what drew you to that line of work? And I will tell you, I will confess that if I didn’t have my current job, I might want yours. But I’d love to know how you’ve landed in the talent world.

Mia Jung 4:58
I’ve got room on that team right now. Brian I would say my foray into the talent world was very much a result of my first chapter of my career, I kind of put my career in chapters. My first chapter was commercial leadership roles in the pharmaceutical and in the med-tech space. And I was lucky I was born onto a team, I have a twin sister, I have my first boss out of college, Rob steer at Merck was a fabulous manager. And then my last stint in the med-tech world, I had a chance to really manage a large territory. And it was one of those stories. For me, it was a defining moment in my career where I knew it was a tough territory to take over as a manager. And the first day I joined, one of the women came up to me on the team and said, Welcome to the land of misfit toys. And I was like, Oh, this was a low-performing team, but this is gonna be a tough climb. And I spent the four years really turning the team around just early observations where we had the wrong people. And particularly it was a small territory, it was I think, we were doing 4 million in business, I knew it was a couple 100 million dollars of opportunity. And the person that was bringing in close to the 4 million was just, frankly, an unethical person. And all the doctors told me, I’m never going to use you guys until you get rid of him. And so it was one of those things that we went from the lowest-performing the territory to the highest performing. And it was just a matter of turning over the people so that the decision of moving to talent was pretty easy. Because I saw it actually happen on my own team.

Renee DeSilva 6:40
It is fascinating, we have a similar background in that I started my career on the commercial side. And then also, I was in a Chief Talent Officer role before this one. You don’t often see a pivot from commercial leaders into talent, leaders, but your sentiment is so right. At the end of the day, it all does come down to people. Yeah. And so that that really resonates with me, in terms of the thing that unlocks most value in a company, is the quality of the talent that you can recruit and retain. So absolutely. I want to go I want to spend a bit more time there. But before I do, let’s actually zoom out a bit and talk a bit about board work, which I know you are an active board member, and you’ve worked with a number of companies in the process of building their boards. I want to maybe double click on, in your own words, how do you sort of think about the value of building a diverse board?

Mia Jung 7:32
The value of building a diverse board, and I would say particularly in healthcare, just given the nuances and complexities. If you think about what a board is there to achieve, right? It’s there to obviously we’ve got fiduciary responsibilities to the shareholders, but it’s really to help solve problems, what is the goal of the business? And how can we support the CEO and the leadership team. And so if you think about the complexity of healthcare, and there’s a patient involved, there’s a provider of care, there’s a payer of care I think the value of a diverse board is having representation from all those different stakeholders. And so as you’re helping the CEO and the investors to solve problems, it’s making sure that you’ve got different voices represented from different experiences.

Renee DeSilva 8:14
That’s right. And we as an industry, more recently have started to have a much broader conversation around you want diversity of thought and experiences and perspectives. And then you also want your governing bodies to reflect the communities and consumers that we serve. And I think as a country, we’re not yet tuning the bar on that. So I think we know that 73% of board members are men by POC executives hold about 20% of board seats. I think most folks are really wanting to do better on those metrics. Why do you feel like maybe some of the results are not yet in line with the intentions?

Mia Jung 8:53
It’s a great question. And before I talk about the why I’ll just further underscore the importance of it just given that the majority of decision-makers in health care, the majority of providers in health care are minorities, and so even more underscores the importance, I think to answer your question, the reason why we haven’t joined the bar yet is a couple of reasons. Number one, the traditional board member is that press release CEO and board experience higher. And so we really have been working hard at and I’m seeing progress in terms of really understanding what do we need this person to bring to the table? What are your business strategic imperatives? What expertise do you want around the table? And is it really a CEO and board experience? Or is that just a press release? And secondly, especially in our world of private equity, the majority of the board, it’s the CEO, traditionally a white male, although that’s changing, and the investors and the investors are traditionally white males. And so if you think about every time an independent board director is available before seat is available. If they’re not pausing or being intentional, they’re pulling from their own network. And that network tends to reflect and look like who they are.

Renee DeSilva 10:10
That’s right. And I think we are all, even think about this for myself in terms of, I think all of our natural reflexes often to go that people that we’ve worked with before. And it really does, you really do need to be intentional about how you think about building candidates. And this can be for management roles or board roles. And then also thinking about building those relationships well in advance of needing to sort of fill a particular position. And so maybe staying on that thread a bit, you sort of often get a sense that perhaps there’s a sentiment that there, there might be a lack of well-qualified candidates and I, but I would disagree with that. I think we do have a visibility of talent issue, right. So if you’re pulling into your own network, sometimes it can be hard to find folks that may be less visible, what are some ways that organizations and boards can really work harder to expand beyond the obvious?

Mia Jung 11:05
I do think it is that intentionality, really just pausing, I do think it’s plugging into different networks, and whether that’s different search firms or partners that have broader networks, or people that represent a different network or demographic, and saying, Who do you know from your group of executives who, as you mentioned, we all tend to know, folks who resonate with who we are and what we look like. And so being intentional about picking different groups of people and going to them and saying, This is what I’m looking for? Do you have anybody in your network, versus going to the very easy first connection of people you went to college with, or people that you’ve worked with, or people that sit around the table with you already? So I think it is that intentionality, it is to your point: building those relationships sooner than later starting early on with some of these great organizations and building those networks early on to be that connective tissue in that bridge, when the time does come, it’s much more authentic versus like, I gotta plug a hole, and feel less transactional in terms of trying to fill a diversity gap.

Renee DeSilva 12:11
That’s right. I know you also spend a lot of your time getting to know new people. I know that you’re very expansive in terms of how you get to know folks and evaluate talent for things that may not be immediate or even near term. I also know that in your previous role you co-founded Break into the Boardroom, which is still a thriving community that works to promote gender parity on healthcare boards. So tell us a little bit about that program and the impact that you’ve seen it have?

Mia Jung 12:38
Absolutely. So the program started eight years ago, and it was really when I came into this talent world, as you mentioned, and it was eye-popping to me, how few women were in the boardroom. And in these executive roles, as I was interacting with the venture and private equity community, it was shocking. And the disparity in what I was being told, I tried to find a woman board member that I couldn’t find any versus the hundreds of women that I’ve been talking to and cultivating a network and there wasn’t symmetry and what I was hearing what I was seeing, and so knew that where I sat in the market was privileged, I was sitting across an incredible group of people. I also knew that I represented the supply side. And in order to make real change, we needed to find somebody on the demand side. So somebody on the investor side could really be a champion and make sure that they were looking across their portfolio companies and being thoughtful about board seats and availability. So Leslie Henshaw from Deerfield was that partner for me? We came together eight years ago. And it was interesting, like, in the beginning, I would say it felt a little bit like we were pushing a ball up a hill, I was like, we’d have these programs where we talked to these women that were nominated by CEO so very qualified board-ready women that tomorrow if I got a call, I could say here’s 20 Great executives, but in the beginning, it was very much okay, I’ve got all these great women and we’ve educated them now. What? Robotic crickets. And so I would knock on private equity doors and say, Hey, I know you’ve got lots of portfolio companies. I’ve got a great network. And Leslie was doing her part at Deerfield. But I would say eventually, and Brian, who we both work with was a champion of this early on, he called but as soon as I told him about our program, he said, Sign me up, I want five board seats, and he actually put me on one of his boards. So I had a massive imposter syndrome. And, of course, was not gonna say, you’re not gonna turn that opportunity down. And so it was just a great, it’s a great program where we’ve really provided that visibility that we talked about connecting the dots between the supply and the demand side. And as a result, we’ve placed 55 women into the boardroom, and super proud of that. Obviously, the power of one is something that I’m proud of. You can get one woman in a boardroom, but it really is that multiplier effect that we’re seeing.

Renee DeSilva 14:56
That’s right. Yeah, that’s really powerful. So just maybe staying with that. And you mentioned Brian Regan who leads the healthcare practice at last person has been a key piece of that, to connect the dots for our listeners, and then maybe I would ask you this question, which is, I think a lot about the power of a nudge, which is when you can reach out to someone whom you see readiness and potential, and such a high ceiling for and they might not yet recognize that in themselves, and I’ve benefited from the nudge across my career, I also hope that I have been the person nudging others where I see that they could have a bigger impact. So I wonder how you think about that for yourself, both in your own career when the power of the noun has been helpful to you? And you just mentioned one example. And then how do you try to pay that forward?

Mia Jung 15:40
Yeah, I love to hear who gave you the nudge before I answer.

Renee DeSilva 15:44
I’ve had several along the way. I would say very early in my career, back in my early 20s, I had a really strong manager, his name was Adam, who the way that he nudged me was both giving me feedback that I didn’t always want to hear. But we know sometimes that women don’t get the benefit of enough feedback. And that can be career limiting. So he sort of nudged me by being open and giving me the feedback. And then he put me in roles that I felt like I was not yet ready for. And that gave me confidence that I was able to build on. So I think about him very early on in my career. And then I think, late for this role at the academy. I mean, you talk about imposter syndrome. When I first got the call to consider this. I just felt like I wasn’t in my chief town officer spot. I loved the work that I was doing at a company called EAB. And it was a former colleague of mine, Susie Cobin, who is a partner at a search firm as well. And she’s like, Renee, are you? Are you like, how are you not? How are you telling me you’re not ready to think about this opportunity. And so those were probably two key inflection moments for me professionally,

Mia Jung 16:48
I love that. I love that those people are so important. So similarly, I mean, that the nudge has been early on, I have an incredible father who’s constantly pushing my twin sister and I, giving us confidence early on to try new things and be comfortable failing. I would say more recently, Trevor price gives the nudge or the push or the shove quite often. And I’ve always appreciated that I told him he’s gotten me comfortable being uncomfortable. And that’s where you learn and grow. I would say Brian asking me to sit on a board, for me, was just eye-popping. And really the reason why I’m here today. And Jim Flynn, who’s at Deerfield asked me to sit on his nonprofit board. So I think all of those folks who have kind of reached in and said, I’m asking you because I know you can do this. It’s just been extremely powerful and has exposed me to so many other things. Those have been the people that have nudged me.

Renee DeSilva 17:44
That’s great. And then how do you think about ways in which you’re now doing that for the leaders that are maybe kind of coming up behind you?

Mia Jung 17:51
Yeah, and it’s always easy to see the potential and others versus yourself, right. In my former days, my entire day was filled with talking to women executives, just because of the Break Into The Boardroom program, I became a bit of a flywheel of talking to women. And it was so eye-opening to me, as I talked to these incredible women with really deep intense experience that just said, I haven’t been the CFO, so I don’t know if I’m ready for it, or I’ve never sat on a board. So I don’t know, if I’m ready for a night, from I think human nature, women are less, we’re risk-averse. And we like to have all the answers or have studied for the test before we take the leap, but for me, it’s the same to them, I promise you, I would not call you but in the you are ready. And by the way, I’ve talked to five other men that are around the same experience as you and they’ve all raised their hands with courage. So I’m going to push you to raise your hand cuz I know you can do this.

Renee DeSilva 18:45
Yeah, it’s really powerful. And I would add on to that I have been really purposefully in my last probably five years of sometimes you have to nudge somebody in a way where that means they don’t land in your orbit anymore, right, which can create some short term pain, but I do try to think through what is the highest and best use of that person’s skills. And I, I would love to have a job for them where they could flex those muscles. But if I don’t, it’s also my job to ensure that they land well. And so I think it’s really powerful as we all think through that.

Mia Jung 19:14
I love that you said that because I 100% agree. And I think there’s just this halo effect, right? I mean, our healthcare is about helping people. And also, it’s a small world. So it’s like a small industry. So the more that you can kind of take off your, your head of the organization that you sit in and think about the greater good for that person. I think everybody succeeds.

Renee DeSilva 19:33
I agree. All right, I want to stay on this, but maybe expand the conversation a bit to just building executive teams and the talent management umbrella more broadly. So you recently transitioned into a new role, describe your new role and a little bit around just the sort of what does that then mean about where you’re spending your time these days?

Mia Jung 19:53
Sure. And I’m six weeks since I’m still Chancellor fyros. But I call this chapter three My career, but I did just take a new role. I’m the talent partner at Welch’s at Welsh, Carson and I focus on the healthcare sector. And the way I think about my job is in three different categories. The first category is current portfolio assessment. So who are the executives at the portfolio companies? Where are there gaps functionally? What do the board’s look like? What’s the composition? What are the functional expertise that we need to plug in all around? What these investors have typically, as a value maximization plan, how do we get the returns? How do we create value in these companies, so three to five years down the road, we can sell them for more than we bought them, frankly. And so that’s, that’s where I’m spending kind of the first amount of time is just current portfolio assessment. The second category is, is working with the executive network. So who is in the market who are rock stars that we all admire who have done great things in healthcare, innovative things, strong leaders that are not on the Welsh person platform, and so making sure that I stay in the market kind of back to my, my recruiting days and form long relationships with them. So as they may maybe have exits, or they’ve got board opportunity, we have board opportunities for their expertise, we can plug them into our platform. And then the third category is internal work I am at oxiana used to help with the leadership and development and culture building and onboarding. And so that’s, that’s something that I’ve taken on with a few of the investment professionals just to make sure I always think you have to have your house in order in order for you to be the best version of yourself and succeed at your business goals.

Renee DeSilva 21:39
That’s great. That’s quite the portfolio of things to manage. So maybe starting with that first component that the portfolio company assessment, when you think about building out a leadership team today, right, and I do think leading today is maybe different than it was even three or five years ago, what are the most in-demand qualities for leadership teams that healthcare companies as you see it today?

Mia Jung 22:09
Your right. We’ve just been through two really, really tough years that has impacted the way that we work. And I would say what I’m seeing are strong leaders of their functions. So whether that’s finance or growth or operations, or clinical, so strong functional leaders are not just people who can do the work, but they can lead a team, but then also people who can collaborate across the leadership team. So from a pure perspective, so I think that finding folks who are both functional leaders as well as you can contribute at the ELT level. I also think, because we are in this, this crazy market of, we’re deploying capital, lots of growth opportunities in these companies, somebody that can roll up their sleeves, somebody that can really roll up the sleeves. But also zoom out, roll up your sleeves, help to do the work, but then also build a great team, and then get out of the way where I’m seeing some of these leaders fall down a bit are hiring great people, and then not letting them actually not empowering them. And so really seasoned leaders or, or people that want to make an impact, don’t want to be micromanaged. And so, I think those are the most important qualities that I’ve seen.

Renee DeSilva 23:25
And do you—and maybe I said that I thought it had shifted—but does that feel dramatically different for you than maybe it did eight years ago, when you were first spending time on this topic?

Mia Jung 23:36
I think the point on I didn’t mention it. But really this balance of EQ and IQ. Smart people that have empathy is something that I’m just seeing emerge more and more just given what we’ve been through with COVID the past couple years. I think the leadership part like the peer leadership and collaborative approaches is something I’ve seen change a little bit more versus finding like functional leaders are experts in their silos. Yeah, I’m seeing more importantly, the being critical to have strong peer leaders on the ELT versus just functional leaders.

Renee DeSilva 24:14
No, that makes a ton of sense. And then maybe just a final question around that would just be is there anything you would maybe think about differently for the CEO role in particular? So I know that most folks, I know that whilst Carson’s perspective is oftentimes having repeat management teams in place, and so just animate that a bit for us in terms of how you think about that from a CEO minds in particular.

Mia Jung 24:39
Yeah, and I’ll go back to that EQ/IQ combination. I think having that emotional intelligence, the stories that I’m hearing now from the market is red hot, it’s a candidates market. They have lots of choices and candidates are choosing CEOs to join based on their leadership, the culture that they build their ability to be an empathetic leader. There are so many opportunities people want to work with people they want to work with. And that’s where they want to spend their time. And I think COVID has been this bit of a pause and reflection of like, how am I spending my time and who am I spending it with, and CEOs who care about people who pick up the phone and call them and say, Hey, I just want to check in and see how your family’s doing. Also leaders who are flexible, right, we’ve got this whole new working situation where you’ve got to have flexibility, it’s you can’t expect people to be in the office five days a week anymore. So I think it’s the empathetic leader, it’s also a leader who’s got perspective and doesn’t have the highs and lows every time something goes wrong, because there’s a lot of fire drills in these companies and finding somebody that has that evenness is super important, and a CEO as well as the empathy and the perspective.

Renee DeSilva 25:53
Yeah, I love that. One of the things I love most about my current role is i, this, this platform gives me visibility into so many fantastic CEOs across healthcare at the large health systems or large healthcare companies. And I’m, I’m I just wrapped a call before joining this with a CEO of a large multi-state, probably top 10 In terms of size health system. And when I remember about every time I get off of a call with him or leave an interaction with him, the number one thing that I think about is like, I feel seen and heard by him, just the way that he needs, whether it’s over video or in-person is you just feel seen. And I think that and given just the scope and complexity that he’s managing, I just think that’s an incredible trait that not everyone has.

Mia Jung 26:44
100%, and then that’s the other— thank you for bringing that up. I mean, a leader who can be inclusive, right, if you’re going to hire all these people with different perspectives, like let them speak, and let their opinion matter and let them impact the way that you’re running the business. So I 100% agree with that.

Renee DeSilva 27:00
Yep, I love that so much. Let’s then go to the other side of it, which is from the team member or employee perspective, every leader is sort of managing through what some folks are calling this “great resignation.” And to contextualize that a bit, I think last year, an average of 4 million Americans quit their job each month, which is just sort of mind-boggling to get your head wrapped around. And then nearly one in five of healthcare workers have left their jobs since the pandemic. And so I guess just your perspective on that, how is that we talked about being a very hot market? It’s a candidates market. Any other just observations that you might share on that topic?

Mia Jung 27:37
Yeah, I think it is a candidates market because of this great resignation. And I do think it goes back to people really took the time during COVID, to stop and think about, how are they spending their time? And where are they spending it. And there are lots of opportunities, there’s a ton of capital being deployed into the market in the private equity in the venture side. And so great candidates have lots of options, the search firms have never been busier, I’ve talked to oxygen, as increased tremendously all my friends and the other search firms are also busy. And that means that the great candidates go quickly, everybody’s circling around the “been there done that” for candidates who have built innovative organizations, wages are increasing in strong leaders and sponsors back to that earlier point will win, I really do think if you’ve got a strong leader, or a sponsor, who has a good reputation of being a good partner, to the executive team, those are the ones that are going to attract the best talent. And I think that I do think that it’s going to be interesting to see how it plays out in the private equity world we’re living just because the velocity of capital that’s being deployed the scarcity of talent traditionally, I think these companies or these investors have been able to financially engineer the great returns, and now it’s going to be incumbent on good leaders and teams. And so, if you’ve got a strong leader who can transform culture, who can bring in a great talent, who can drive revenue, that’s going to be the difference in the returns. So there’s, there’s a, there’s a lot going on, but particularly private equity, it’s going to be interesting to see.

Renee DeSilva 29:18
Yeah, and I also think is part of that I think about for my own company, and just as I chat with others around this, this workforce, the challenges of workforce getting to the things that matter, when you’re evaluating an organization, you talked about a couple of those things that the culture that exists there, the nature of the leadership team, I think what also comes out for me too, is just this notion of how do you create meaning and significance in the work that people are doing? And it’s tough because you feel like you have to really be really firing on all cylinders. So I guess distill that down. If you had one single piece of advice for folks that are on the side of the coin, where they’re actually recruiting for like, how do you think about things that maybe Folks should be dialing up when you’re chatting with folks who are looking to fill positions or even think about their talent management plans, do you have a single piece of advice that you might offer?

Mia Jung 30:09
I think it goes back to what you said, we’re all in healthcare for a reason, right? We care about people. And I do think that being clear on the mission of the organization, the value of what that person brings to the table, the impact that they can have on the organization, and the culture, I think those things often get put into the squishy zone. But that stuff really matters. Again, as strong candidates have lots of opportunities, I think it’s important for the hiring manager to be able to articulate all of those things to candidates, because I’m having conversations every day with candidates who are just hungry to be in a company that has a culture, has a mission, has a vision, has strong leadership.

Renee DeSilva 30:57
Indeed, and packaging, I think about the power of just the story, like how do you create the right story around that and, and packaging that in a way where I’ve gotten this advice from Jim Hinton, whom I think as well, who was the former really, really strong CEO at Presbyterian, and then recently at Baylor, Scott and White, and it’s yes, it’s all of that. But in insofar as if I think his anecdote is if I asked an environmental services worker or my Chief Operating Officer, like, can everyone hit the major high notes on that? And so I do think this, how do you then package all that in bite-sized portions that people really can, can tap into? And I know I’m doing some of my own workarounds these days.

Mia Jung 31:33
No, totally. And how do you cascade it down from the janitor up to the CEO? I mean, I think I remember actually, I think it was Larry Summers, but he had an interview where he talked about one of the things that they made sure at Harvard was like everybody from the janitor understood the value and the impact that they had at Harvard. And so for the janitor who was setting up the screen for the future Nobel laureate to be able to present making sure that he is connected to the broader goals.

Renee DeSilva 32:02
Absolutely easier said than done, but so important. Alright, so I have one final question for you, but before I go there, I don’t know that I knew that you had a twin.

Mia Jung 32:12
I do!

Renee DeSilva 32:13
Identical or fraternal?

Mia Jung 32:14

Renee DeSilva 32:15
Oh, wow. That’s unbelievable.

Mia Jung 32:17
She’s awesome. She’s a rock star at Medtronic. I think she’s a vice president, but she is such an incredible human being and an important person in my life, and the person that can punch me in the nose and keeps me honest on things and I love her dearly.

Renee DeSilva 32:34
That’s fantastic. My mom has a twin brother, and my mom is in her mid-70s, and it is a very special relationship from the outside so that’s fantastic.

All right, well final question for you, and I ask this of all my guests. Part of the inspiration for The Academy Table is just the joy that I think all of us get in didn’t mess through the pandemic of sitting across the table breaking bread with someone and just really being in a state of flow, just enjoying the conversation and losing a sense for time. And so I wonder if you could curate your ideal table, a couple of people to join you? Who would they be and why?

Mia Jung 33:13
I love this question. And I knew you were gonna ask because I’ve been listening to your podcast. And I was a little stressed out about it, because there’s like, you can boil the ocean, but I will simplify it. I think the people that I always surround myself with, or I love to surround myself with are people who inspire me and people who make me laugh. And so if I had to pick two or three folks RBG, Ruth Bader Ginsburg has to be at the table. All right to RBG love her, but just, obviously, who she is what she stood for what she’s done for women, just the role model that she is the pioneer. I also love the fact that she and Scalia, could be friends, despite the fact that they were completely polarized in their views. And just given the environment that we live in today. I would love to learn from that. And so I have to give RBG a shout-out that somebody I’d love to sit down with. And then I don’t know if you know Jim Gaffigan. He’s a comedian. But he is somebody that is like a good clean comedian. It’s been a rough couple of years, everyone needs to laugh. And I love him because he is a clean comic. And uses material that’s like very common everyday things like fatherhood and laziness and food. And so I think it’d be fun to hang out with him. And I also just thought it’d be fun to watch RBG and Jim Gaffigan interact.

Renee DeSilva 34:36
That’s a great answer. I would definitely crash that table. That. That’s wonderful. Well, thank you, me, I always enjoy chatting with you. And I sort of felt like this conversation was one that we would have just had if we were just the two of us catching up. So thank you. You’re always a pleasure. And I really do. I’m glad that you were able to join us today.

Mia Jung 34:54
Thank you, Renee.

Renee DeSilva 34:56
Thanks again for joining me at the table. The Table is a podcast produced by the Health Management Academy. Make sure you catch future episodes by visiting our website,, or by subscribing on the podcast platform of your choice, and if you have suggestions for topics or guests, I’d love to hear from you. Please drop me a note at I look forward to talking with you soon.