Renee DeSilva 00:01
Welcome back to The Table. I’m Renee DeSilva, CEO of the Health Management Academy and your host this week. I’m excited to welcome Dr. David Feinberg, the chairman of Oracle Health to the table. It’s been a year since the Oracle Cerner transaction closed and it was great to UNTAC David’s reflections on that milestone, and what to expect from Oracle Health in the years to come. David is a pediatric psychiatrist by training. Here are my takeaways from the conversation. First, David has led a remarkable career and several high profile roles and organizations, UCLA, Geisinger, Google and now are the single theme that spans his work is a firm believer that healthcare is fundamentally about caring for people. I think it applies to individuals as much as it does to leaders working at scale, and it was a wonderful reminder of why so many of us have chosen to work in this industry. Next, we covered a lot of ground on Oracle’s vision and priorities and health care. What I appreciated the most is Oracle’s global perspective from serving a diverse array of clients worldwide. David takes us through how tech and data is leveraged differently outside of the United States. Next, we covered a lot of ground and Oracle’s vision and priorities in healthcare. What I appreciated the most is Oracle’s global perspective from serving a diverse array of clients worldwide. David takes us through how tech and data is leveraged differently outside the US from tracking pediatric waits for community planning and Saudi Arabia to build an interoperability with more than 14 million daily records at the UK National Health Service. And finally, we discuss the pace of AI change and how to ensure it does more than just complicate existing problems. You’ll want to hear all of David’s thoughts on this, but my favorite AI won’t replace doctors, but it will replace those who don’t use that. So with that, let’s head to the table. Good morning, David. Welcome to the table.

Dr. David Feinberg 02:02
Good morning. So excited to be here.

Renee DeSilva 02:04
I’m glad to have you. There’s so much to cover with you. But before we dive in, I’d love to start a little bit about your the arc of your career. So when I look across your career, you’ve done a lot with an academic medicine provider, and then making a shift to Google and now Oracle Health. Just talk to me about those sort of broad brushstrokes that implements your career forces.

Dr. David Feinberg 02:27
Still, the broad brushstrokes because in some ways I don’t think I’ve changed at all, is I’m just trying to help people. To me healthcare is people caring for people. And I want to make care. When I was a provider, providing character, whatever I’m doing now, just more understandable, more accessible, more equitable, I’m going to make it really simple. I want everyone to get the same care that my family should be able to get. And so in some ways, it’s just been different opportunities to try to do that. And the fun part has been doing it at scale. But when it gets down to it, I just want to make sure people get cared for.

Renee DeSilva 03:10
And when you think about the, you know, 30 plus years of your career experience in health care. Do you think were beginning to move the needle on that aspiration?

Dr. David Feinberg 03:21
What’s your view? Yes, that’s a good question. I’d say in so many ways, yes. And then in these other ways, it’s just killing me. And I would say no, so you know, care more under understandable like it used to be, the doctor knew everything. And people didn’t have access to information. And I think Google, in particular, really leveled the playing field. And you could say, in the early days of Google search, it might have led people down the wrong path. But when I was at Google, so the more recent times, like there were 50 billion 50 billion impressions of our COVID Information page on YouTube. And probably now it’s 80 billion since I’ve left, right. So we’ve leveled the field on ability to get information amazing like that. That’s amazing. In that same 30 year time we digitized a record like no one during COVID. Got no one during COVID in the United States heard Oh, we can’t find this patient’s chart because Dr. Smith took it home over the weekend. You know this, I can’t read this prescription. So yes, we digitize the record, we’ve made information flow. And then we’ve done some stuff that is just terrible. I think we’ve made health inequities worse. I think mental health continues to be kind of carved out into got forgotten how important it is. And these are things we knew 30 years ago, so Yes, those things I don’t think we’ve made a lot of progress on it. I’d even say in some ways we’ve taken steps.

Renee DeSilva 04:55
When you think about the mission that all of us who are in health care are striving for right making healthcare that as more cost efficient, higher quality, greater access that sort of triple aim. Do you do you think those three goals and imperatives are compatible? And Yes,

Dr. David Feinberg 05:16
Yes, so I used to say like, you can’t squeeze the balloon three ways, like so when you think of kind of quality, cost. And access, it’s, there’s not a lot of examples in the world where everyone gets all three. And I used to think of the only thing I thought that you get high quality, it’s everybody gets it, and it doesn’t cost a lot, is the fire department. Like everyone gets the fire department to show up, they’re always great folks. And they do a great job like, and other than that, I can think of something like with health care, like if you do high quality, and a low cost, then there may not be access, or if there’s, you know, access and quality there. It may be costly. And so I thought, God, why can’t we just be like the fire department. And then actually, the fires in California blew me away. There’s, there’s no private fire departments. So you’re living in some fancy house in Malibu, and the guy next door has a private pilot. So even that was like, that was my one example. And now it doesn’t even exist. So no, I think oftentimes, this dream of high quality, low cost sensible. I mean, we don’t even have examples of that for water in the United States, like people don’t get clean water. So I, it’s a big, it’s a big ask for health care to be able to hit all those three, although all of us would warm it. It’s still, it’s still pretty tricky.

Renee DeSilva 06:47
Yes. But the mission continues. You know, I wonder, I wonder your your clinical training was in psychiatry. Right. So you come at this also, from a, from a clinician view, it sounds like that still very much permeates how sort of how you see the world and the different roles that you’ve taken to try to really continue to push on this. Is that right?

Dr. David Feinberg 07:04
Yes, so my training was in psychiatry, I did most of my crap and child psychiatry, and I did most of my practice in child psychiatry and addiction psychiatry. And when you think about that kind of framework to the world, I’m talking about families came to me at their worst time. And it required a lot of coordination. It was actually part of medicine that isn’t well studied. And you tried to get these folks back on the right trajectory, whether it was a child with autism, or somebody with a new onset psychosis, or kid who just got busted for doing drugs at school like, and it’s just these moments in people’s lives where their trajectory, the potential trajectory of their lives and their families has changed dramatically. They show up that’s assuming they could get in because access was always is always still difficult for mental health. And then did we explain things in a way that made sense to them, and then the rest of the world still had all the stigma about it. I used to say, if your kid has cancer, and you go to the supermarket, and your kid has no hair because of the chemo treatment, people bring food to your house and feel bad for you. If your kid has autism. People go to a different aisle, the supermarket right and yet, it’s still a disorder. Right. And so those things Yes, definitely frame my perspective of what’s going on.

Renee DeSilva 08:32
Yes, that other I mean, one of the questions where we started was Where have we seen progress across the last 30 years, I would say, I don’t know, if you would note this to certainly still challenges around access around mental health. But I know that the stigma is, is maybe changing in certain places where there’s at least more of an openness from employers and even benefits designed to try to recognize that sort of whole person approach. And I think that’s beginning to shift. Would you agree with that statement?

Dr. David Feinberg 09:01
I would totally agree, Renee that it’s beginning. I think the way to get it to totally shift though, is really this move toward value based care. Because if if a person is suffering from panic disorder, and they keep showing up in the ER, and having cardiac workups there’s no incentive in a fee for service system to really figure that out. Now, let’s move to a value based system where we want to get good outcomes and we want to keep cost down now that chest palpitation in the ER all of a sudden becomes wow, if we can get this person in evidence based treatment for cognitive therapy. Not only do we treat their panic disorder, which is great, but we’re gonna decrease that expensive cardiac workup that we keep doing. Now all of a sudden people have to start paying attention because the the if you follow the money, all of a sudden it becomes important. It’s not important in a fee for services. Some to worry. From a financial standpoint about that panic patient, it obviously is from humans now. But in a value based system, it all just becomes incredibly. That’s right. That’s right.

Renee DeSilva 10:14
Well, then let’s then go to maybe some of the current work that you’re up to. I feel like every time you make a career shift, it gets a fair amount of attention. So I think what’s probably now what about 18 months ago, you left Google to pursue the opportunity at Cerner, which was then acquired by Oracle. And so now you are, I think, approaching the one year anniversary of Oracle Health. What’s your reflection? As you hit the milestone? What did you set out to do? And how are you feeling about that? That that sort of

Dr. David Feinberg 10:47
vision? You know, this was a lot of what you just described, I wasn’t aware was gonna happen. Right. So it’s been it’s been a roller coaster I. When I was at Google, it, first of all, I’ve never been surrounded by so many smart people. And I was nervous. This was my first for profit, right. I had worked at UCLA for 25 years and guys under a non for profit, health care. And I was nervous. even talked about it before I went in, it was part of my decision making like am I gonna have to sacrifice my values as a doc, like, I don’t want to sell ads to patients. What I found at Google was more mission driven people than I’d ever met in my career more so than the knock for railing. These people are intuitive.

Renee DeSilva 11:33
That’s interesting. It totally is counterintuitive.

Dr. David Feinberg 11:36
These people now maybe this remember, this is Google a couple of years ago, maybe it’s different now with the current situation in tech and how it’s doing financially. But these people want to do the right thing. And man, are they serious about it? And they’re super smart. So it was an incredible opportunity to be there. To learn about that culture, and to see the scale, like 2 million searches a day on health questions, like, talk about trying to get people information, like, this is where healthcare starts. So it was incredible. But for me, in some ways, I felt like I was a vendor to the vendors. And I missed the nursing station and walking through the ER. So coming back to Cerner was an opportunity to me to be able to kind of walk the halls again and be on the closer to the frontline of healthcare. Because Cerner is the largest EHR company in the world. So from a market shares standpoint, we have bigger install base than anyone. And I said this pre Cerner and add, Cerner, that doesn’t mean, we got a great product, like I think these EHRs RS included have never been built for the user. Right. So that’s job number one to fix it. But being the largest EHR company in the world, to me means we have more grandma’s blood sugar than anyone else, what an opportunity to keep it secure, to understand it, to get that blood sugar to the right place to be able to understand whether grandma needs food in your house. I mean, what a privilege to be that last mile of understanding what’s happening in healthcare. So that was my coming to Cerner. And after about 90 days there, you’re supposed to come down with some brilliant strategy. And mine was we got to fix the EHR, we got to make this thing usable. And that’s all we need to focus on. Like, we got to get less clicks, it’s got to be more intuitive, needs to have a modern tech stack. We can’t have Doc’s spending two hours in the evenings when they get home completing their records. It’s not only not fair, it’s just not the right thing to do. So that was the journey. Oracle knocks on the door. And to be very frank, I felt like, Oh, my God, here we go, again, tech, thinking those of us in healthcare don’t really know what they’re doing. And if we just use this app, and everything would get better. And so the Oracle Integration starts. And there were a couple of decisions in the beginning that I felt like, Oh, I was right, like these guys, and girls don’t get health care. Now a year into it, I was completely wrong. I would describe my Oracle, my new Oracle colleagues, as incredibly humble and inquisitive. And really appreciating, let’s say, the expertise that the Cerner legacy people have, because we’ve been in healthcare for a long time. And there’s also a different a real differentiator from Google. So at Google, it was really clear that they were putting their toe in the water in healthcare at all Call, Larry Ellison has been very clear, we are jumping in the water. So he described Oracle now as a health company. Health is the priority for Oracle. And that’s a big difference. So instead of trying to come up with a point solution, and I’m happy to talk more about this, as we get in the conversation, we’re going to try to create a large platform ecosystem that really does change how information is exchanged whoever’s caring for you, whether it’s your mom at home, or you or case manager or professional, getting the right data at the right time. So

Renee DeSilva 15:40
I want to go into that. I love that. So let’s let’s click on that. So so maybe bring to life and Oracle, Oracle Health vision for this healthcare for life or bringing health care to life for all of us. What does that mean to build that intelligence based cloud platform that maybe leverages the EHR as a system of record, but really needing to get that to become a system of engagement, if you will.

Dr. David Feinberg 16:05
I’m going to try to do this without too many buzzwords. But there’s so many buzzwords, but I’m going to try to pull it back to try to explain things in a way people can understand and know mumbo jumbo. So Cloud enabled, open and connected platform for health, right? So Cloud makes sense from a security and cost standpoint, open and connected to me are buzzwords are we are not doing this by ourselves. Okay, this is going to be through partnerships. And we want the best of everyone to join. And then what we’re really trying to do is connect the different parts of healthcare. So you get intelligence, so EHR, and we want to build this in an EHR agnostic way. So the other players in the EHR space can join. Of course, we got an EHR, so that’s great. And the other pieces that we want on this connected platform, are things like human capital management software. So think about a nurse who’s never given chemo, and is doing it in the EHR. We know for the first time, well, the human capital management system should know that that nurse is giving this type of chemo, particularly for the first time. And we do just in time training, where the EHR knows what’s happening in the OCR, because you’re documenting it, to get the surgery, we use these supplies. And that drives your supply chain software, and ERP, so enterprise resource planning, claims processing, clinical trial information, all of these components are pulled together in a way that’s easy, pre integrated, intelligent. And then a key piece in all of this is it has to be way, way, way less expensive. Because as I’ve had this opportunity to meet with health systems, in the US and around the world, there’s a few things that are consistent. The labor issue is killing people, and the cost issue are killing people. So can we do this in a way where we say, and I would say this is the first time that tech can say this, here’s a tech solution, that’s going to dramatically decrease your costs. So it’s got to be intelligent, it’s got to be easy to use, it’s got to be connected with others. And it creates this end to end platform that allows those data disparate datasets to make sense into the built into people’s workflow or light flow, depending on who we’re talking about. So that’s, that’s what we’re trying to do. And it’s going to take a while. And it’s going to take a lot of partners.

Renee DeSilva 18:50
Yes. And so that that example that you gave of the nurse giving chemo for the first time and connecting all the dots for her or for him. I get that. Can you maybe then speak to is there? What’s the version of opening connected from the lens of the patient? If that if that is even relevant for this for your Yes,

Dr. David Feinberg 19:11
so Oracle has a vertical business unit called Oracle Financial Services, that business units are divided into two things. One is credit card processing, and they process I don’t know 60 to 80% of the world’s credit cards run on Oracle. The other half of that Oracle Financial Services is medical claims processing for the payers. Hundreds of millions of medical claims are processed by work. So we have clinical information. We have expertise in being that middle person between the bank and the merchant when we do the credit card processing, and we have claims processing. So from a patient standpoint Imagine that you go in to see your provider, you use a portal, you make your appointment online. All the stuff is filled out in advance. When you show up at the health system, we know who you are. You see your provider you walk out, and there’s automatic claims adjudication. Well, what does that mean? From a patient standpoint? That means as you’re leaving the office, it says your out of pocket is $14? Would you like us to use your HSA that’s already loaded. And on your phone, you say, you don’t get an EOB. At home, you don’t get one of those things that no one understands, right? Exactly, no one in advance what’s happening. And really, when you think about it, not only do you now understand that, that little scenario that I gave, should have a dramatic decrease in the overall cost of health care and the patient instead of maybe $14. If we play this out, only those four, because think about when that health system signs a contract with that payer, they agree on the rates. And then they each go and load it in their own systems, and then the provider bills, and there’s a bunch of people coding, and there’s a bunch of people on the payer side, we’re making sure this is authorized and covered. And there’s all kinds of friction, probably 4% of health care costs on each side are spent, I would call these armies fighting each other. Exactly. Well, if we can be that trusted intermediary, 99% of this stuff could be auto adjudication, everybody’s cost increases, some of that should get passed back to the family patient, employer, whoever’s paying for the health insurance. And now not only is it more effective and convenient, it’s actually more costly. And none of that costs, makes depression better helps anyone get their appendix taken out, like this is just noise in our system that we think we can dramatically decrease.

Renee DeSilva 22:01
That’s powerful. So then maybe, let me zoom out and zooming out a bit. I spend most of my time thinking about the healthcare, the United States healthcare system, you particularly in this new, newer role, have a global perspective. So we were to zoom out even further, as you think about the diverse nature of your clients, and just some of the issues that are animating outside of the US healthcare market. What learnings are you drawing from other countries? Are there any exemplars there that you think we should be that should be more directly informing our mission here to be more cost effective higher quality with greater access? Anything that you bring to life there?

Dr. David Feinberg 22:35
Yes, yes. And yes. So so I’m actually so excited about what’s going on outside the US. I think, ultimately, we create a whole system that’s so much more patient and family centered. And then it leapfrogs what we have in the US, and that’s how we bring it back. As opposed to trying to fix the US system, you can get pretty frustrated in our in our current US system. But let me give you some examples. In Sweden, and we had to fix this in our EHR, the, the doctors can prescribe opera. Amazing. In Saudi Arabia, they use our EHR data to look at pediatric weights. And if there’s too much obesity in a certain area, they can’t get approval to open a fast food, but they do get approval to open a gymnasium or communities.

Renee DeSilva 23:28
Wow. So in talking about swimming upstream, you talk about using the data in the right way, like, wow, he’s totally right.

Dr. David Feinberg 23:31
In Sweden, and we’re not going to be able to pull this one off, but I just love it. The baby’s medical record stays under the moms record until the baby is one year old. So think about in the US a baby’s born, we create a new record and all that kind of stuff. I love that the dad can obviously the babies under the mom when the moms pregnant, but they’re they keep it together for a year. And when you think about it with breastfeeding and bonding. It is really so you see things outside the well in London. We have 14 million records a day going across our health information exchange. The UK is a big Cerner Oracle Health customer with NHS. So the interoperability. There’s a place in the UK that found using our data that the chances of being hospitalized for COVID pneumonia was higher among the learning disabled population than it was for people with COPD, bronchitis or emphysema. So actually having a learning disability was a higher risk for pneumonia, COVID hospitalization, then respiratory chronic illness fascinating, what turns out was they weren’t doing the vaccines and did have the clinic set up for the learning disabled population, they do it in Supermatic decrease in hospitalizations. So this kind of population health stuff, value based stuff. It’s how the rest of the world does. And you just see these amazing examples of backs up that app.

Renee DeSilva 25:21
Yes, that’s really powerful. So that I guess, you know, maybe staying on the the insights lens that you just push them to those examples are fantastic. How do you then think about that, in terms of just the pace at which AI and other large language processing models are then sort of shifting how this is ingested and distributed? It that fits the pace of that is pretty mind boggling. Just layer that in to how you’re sort of seeing all these forces coming together?

Dr. David Feinberg 25:51
Yes, that’s the hot question right now. Right? And so here, I’m giving you my stock answer. But then since we have a couple of minutes, I’ll tell you, I’ll give you the background. So what I say is like AI is not going to replace doctors, doctors that don’t embrace AI will be replaced. But this is a really, really powerful tool. It’s mind blowing. It’s so good. It’s also back to our original part of this conversation. It’s also one of the things that scares me the most, because I think it could actually make health inequity worse. So when I was at Google, in the UK, on top of Cerner, we created a system that told the rapid response team in the hospital, basically, the nurses and Doc’s who get called, if a patient isn’t doing well, with admitted, we created an app to try to try to get the time of diagnosis and treatment for acute kidney injury among these patients decreased, it’s always normally taking them four hours. To figure it out on a patient, we created an app that just looked at created just a measure of kidney function, one blood test, and created good UX. So they got notified on their phone, and it went from four hours to 14 minutes. And there were 30% Less cardiac arrest and a 17% increase in the cost of care back to the point of you got to build the tools to work for the people who are using it, but that’s not a shot. And then we said okay, let’s do AI. So instead of looking at just creating one measure per patient, we looked at 60 600,000 variables, times 70,000 patients. So every patient had 600,000 variables, we looked at 70,000 patients, and we train the computer on being able to predict who would go into acute kidney injury. So instead of taking four hours, and we got it down to 14 minutes with good UX, how fast can a computer configure that with a computer figured it out in negative two days. So 48 hours before any sign or symptom, no change in blood values, no change in clinical situation with 90% accuracy. AI would say this person is going to be on dialysis and they were right. Like, blows your mind. Like this is the beginning of like anticipatory medicine, no, like, Oh, my God, this is unbelievable. So that’s great. Now we trained it on 70,000 patients, 600,000 variables per patient on a VA data set, we did this research with the VA. So that’s incredible. But then you go well, how will it work in the general population being that the VA is 93%? Male? Well, it turns out the general population, which is closer to 50 50%, male, female, it doesn’t work as well. So here’s an example of AI. that’s been, that’s amazing. And then you have to be really careful when you use it. Because in women, it actually wasn’t as good of a predictor. And so we have to come up with these AI tools be really, really explicit on what data sets they were trained on, many of them are biased. To start with, I would say, in essence, the VA is biased because it’s heavily male. And so then, if you’re going to use it, it almost has to come with like a food label, like don’t use it in this situation, Be super careful in this situation, or it probably will work really well in this situation. But that human computer interface for that doctor, embracing the AI and understanding how to use it is going to be really, really important for us not to kind of look back and go, Oh my God, we made problems worse. And the other thing is, you can have the best AI in the world. If you make people go to a different workflow or who can’t get through their current day, no one’s gonna go use it. So it’s back to we got to make the EHR and these tools useful and then we can quote unquote sneak the AI in because we’ve already made their day easier, but that AI has to come in with a clear message of be careful in the situation or you’re okay in this situation.

Renee DeSilva 29:53
Yes. A lot to unpack there in terms of just governance and ethical applications of it and how to square All of that. And then I think your point around, you know, we’ve been one topic that we’ve been exploring with our CEOs in particular is around. Where is this? If you believe in this sort of human AI dyad models of care, I think you’re exactly right. Like the workflow has to be there, you need to have ways in which it’s integrated it, it might help augment tasks, but unlikely replaced sort of full functions. But I feel like we are in the very early innings of squaring that. So I just appreciate your your sentiment there.

Dr. David Feinberg 30:31
Yes, I just want us to not make problems we know in health care worse, like, let’s at least try to make stuff better. And I’m just nervous about the bias in the data, and then being so excited about these tools. So really, the probably the best place to use them to start with is not really around clinical decision support, but some kind of menial tasks stuff that could be helpful sending a letter to the insurance company. You know, doing it pretty straightforward, simple progress, no telling a radiologist, hey, maybe you should read the scans in this order, because we think these four are probably your, you know, most significant scans at the 100. You got to read today.

Renee DeSilva 31:09
I think that’s right. All right. One other pivot I want to make before I wrap us up, which is as more of a general broader leadership question for you. So I’m curious for your reflections. As your career has progressed, you have recently moved into from a CEO role to a chairman role. Where do you feel like How has your time shifted? How do you feel like I mean, was that a challenge for you? I mean, typically, you know, CEOs, sort of people who have been CEOs for a long time, you know, they activate in a certain way. So just what does that migration from CEO to Chairman felt like for you?

Dr. David Feinberg 31:47
They’re really different roles. Yes,

Renee DeSilva 31:49
they are done right. If done? Well, they are very yes.

Dr. David Feinberg 31:53
And I’ve tried to be very intentional in not acting CEO ish, in this new role. So I’m trying to spend much more time on kind of broader strategic issues. Oracle had done a lot in healthcare pre Cerner. So I’ve been spending more time trying to pull those things in clinical trials, claims processing, that Oracle had already done, and strategically think about how to connect with kind of the core business of the EHR. It’s definitely given me more time for reflection, and to kind of think, more broadly, were in those CEO roles. It’s, you’re running pretty hard. And I’ve had this transition now twice. So I wasn’t the CEO of Google, I was running Google Health. So a division head, let’s say, as opposed to a CEO, you know, there’s all kinds of perks with the CEO roles that you did all of a sudden disappear when you’re not that person. Those things don’t mean much to me. So whatever, I’m fine with those. In this current one, I’m really, I’m really pleased with the ability, which I got more time to think. Yes. And I think Oracle has made all the right moves about kind of how to operate the business. And it’s been a really fascinating watch of blending what I would call Cerner legacy leadership, with historical Oracle, people who are now have, you know, really significant roles in health. I’d give our integration like an A, it’s called Great. And a big piece of it has been Larry Ellison saying, hey, look, we’re going to do health care. And that has really made it really clear for the organization, what we’re doing, and I, I’m just blessed to be able to have a seat at the table.

Renee DeSilva 34:01
That’s fantastic. I think your reflection is right that you know, the importance of and not that I’ve been in a Chairman role, but just this just this notion of where is the inflection. When you’re not as accountable for day to day operations? I would imagine that that might be a lot of fun just to sort of dwell on the heart of the possible. And

Dr. David Feinberg 34:19
Funny Renee, people ask me, How do I like the job? I said, it’s the most fun job. So it’s something about yes, it is a lot.

Renee DeSilva 34:29
That’s great. That’s great. All right. Final question. It’s one that I asked all of my podcast guests, which is, we’ve we’ve covered a lot today. But if you could invite any two people to continue this conversation at a table that you curated yourself, Who would they be and why? So they don’t have to be living. They do not take all the creative license that you might want to.

Dr. David Feinberg 34:52
So a couple of my heroes. One is Rosalind Franklin, around DNA discovery It’s amazing. First of all, I think a woman that long ago who was brilliant from a scientific standpoint, must have gone through so much. So I would love to know what she thinks from a science standpoint. And also, I think healthcare is a woman’s game, when you think about who provides care to Alpha mom at home was taking care of everyone else. So I would love to invite Rosalind Franklin. And then the other one, which is really important to me, is around health equity. And I think Frederick, Frederick Douglass would be a person that I would be really interested in that could add the perspective of, hey, what was it like, as a black man to try to move the needle? And how can we do how help us teach us how to do that same thing right now?

Renee DeSilva 36:01
That’s pretty powerful. That’s a great I was not familiar with the name Rosalind Franklin. So I will have to go back and

Dr. David Feinberg 36:06
educate Oh, so you know, Watson and Crick discovered the DNA, but she really was her photographs. And she didn’t get the Nobel Prize, because I don’t think they give the Nobel prize if you had died. And so she died. But she’d really it’s really Watson, Crick and Rosalind Franklin are figured out the double helix DNA.

Renee DeSilva 36:28
Well, that is a perfect place to land. I appreciate your time. And thank you so much for joining us today.

Dr. David Feinberg 36:33
You’re so welcome. This was really fun.

Renee DeSilva 36:36
Thank you. Talk to you soon. Thanks for joining me at the table with Renee DeSilva, a podcast brought to you by the Health Management Academy. I hope you enjoyed this episode. And if you did, subscribe, and drop us a review on Apple podcast, Spotify, or wherever you’re listening to this podcast now for all of our episodes, including show notes and transcripts and more information about how you might join me at the table in the future, please head to H M. academy.com/podcast. I look forward to having you back at my table next time. Talk to you again soon.